[aaronedwards82]

Does anyone know the difference between the fms 24#r's and stock 93 cobra 24#r's? Different impedance?
Just wondering why c&l calls for a different sampling tube for the different injectors. Thanks for any insight.

[Sonic Blue 85]

The reason is not the injectors, but the ECM and MAF element. The cobras came with 24# injectors, the ECM is calibrated for 24s. The MAF element is calibrated different because the cobras had 70mm MAFs calibrated for 24s. So if you have a cobra and install a C&L on it you will most likely be using the element out of the cobra MAF.

[aaronedwards82]

Originally Posted by Sonic Blue 85

The reason is not the injectors, but the ECM and MAF element. The cobras came with 24# injectors, the ECM is calibrated for 24s. The MAF element is calibrated different because the cobras had 70mm MAFs calibrated for 24s. So if you have a cobra and install a C&L on it you will most likely be using the element out of the cobra MAF.

And what if i don't have a cobra maf element? Just a stock maf from a gt.
So far i have 93 cobra ecm, fms 24# injectors and the c&l 76mm maf intake with a maf element from a 91 gt. Car runs good at WOT and good going easy on it but it stutters under light to medium acceleration under a load. I'm thinking my fuel pressure is to low some too, 41 lbs at WOT. And timing set at 18*. Any ideas or suggestions?
Thanks

[Sonic Blue 85]

Since you do not have a chip to tune the car with, I would get rid of the cobra ECM. There are many things in the stock cobra tune that are designed to kill power. Any of the stock 5.0 are better, the A9L is the best, all of the rest of the '89-'93 5.0 ECMS are very simular to the A9L.The cobra has an 8 second delay before it uses the WOT funtions. So you are running off of high load funtions and tables for 8 seconds after you put the pedal to the floor. If you lift the throttle between gear shifts it starts counting all over again. The cobra ECM also has high speed timing retard that starts at 98 degrees, if I remember correctly. If you are saying you have 18 degrees of base timing, you need to retard the timing back to 14 to 16 at the most. You have too much timing, unless the outer ring on the ballancer has slipped or the timing pointer is not in the correct location. If you had a chip to tune the car with you could use the MAF element and ECM you have, by changing the injector slopes and the MAF transfer cuver, untill then it will run but it will not be perfect.

[95 GTS]

lemanns terms. a cobra computer works with a maf that thinks you have 19s.... so if you did nothing, you would need a c&l for 19s if you added one to a 93-95 cobra

c&l sucks. It just lies about how much air is going in. It can be very inconsistant. You could dyno tune it and come back 6 months later and it could be super rich or super lean and down 15 hp.I have seen it happen many times.

Go pro m and dont get a bullet style maf.

[Aerocoupe]

What mods have you done to the car to warrant the 24 lb/hr injectors? If this thing is stock (I am talking about the long block) then put the stock EEC, 19 lb/hr injectors, and stock MAF back in the car and move on. If you have mods please list them so we can see if you even need to move to 24 lb/hr injectors.

Darren

[aaronedwards82]

Ok guys,
I went ahead and ordered a a9l ecm and calibration tube, and plan on getting rid of the cobra ecm.
The car has a full roller 306, i think an x cam(not to sure on the cam) with gt40p heads, cobra intake, 70mm holley tb, 1 5/8 long tubes, h with flows. Car has a t-5 with waiting to install king cobra and aluminum driveshaft.
I plan on rebuilding the motor within the next few weeks, just trying to get the bugs out of it from the previous owner(s).
Anybody have any ideas for a good cam to run? I plan on putting a c4 or aod in it when i do the motor overhaul. I might even try to build a 408 or 410, something of that nature. parts should be here tomorrow, i'll give an update to what i find out. Thanks for all the help.

[Sonic Blue 85]

Your combination sounds good, except for the cam and possibly the TB. Check the intake and TB. The GT40 and Cobra intakes were ment for a 65mm TB. A 70mm is probly going to require you open up the intake opening were the TB mounts. I would pull the hose off of the TB, open the TB look down in it with a light. See if there is a mismatch between the intake and TB. The opening of the intake should be 65mm. You will probly need to use the TB gasket as a template and grind out the opening and then blend it back into the cross over. Be very careful not to get any metal shavings down in the intake, they can be difficult to get them all out. If you attempt this remove the intake and stuff a rag down in the cross over, make sure it is a very tight fit and then when you are done have the intake opening pointing down when you remove the rag. The other option is to get a 65mm TB if you had a GT40 I would tell you that is your only option. I would not try to open up a GT40 intake. You probly can open a cobra to a 70mm opening, but I would not try going to 75mm.As long as you have the 306 I would stick to a T5, they use the least amount of power. Possibly the C4 it also uses very little power when built correctly, but you loose your overdrive. The AOD has lots of problems and uses a lot more power. The AOD can be made to be reliable but it will cost a lot of money any you need to have someone who knows a lot about AODs to build it and install it and then adjusts the TV cable if you were to get a trans that shift on its own. The A9L will be the way to go on the ECM. As for cams for a combination like yours possibly a TFS stage I, Crower 15511, or possibly a Crower 15512. Very few people use the Crower cams but they work very well and they do not have a lot of valve lift, which you do not need much lift running a factory iron head. I noticed you are from Taft, I lived in Ingelside, I know the area well. Getting performance parts down there when I lived there was not easy. For a while we had Super Shops, but they went under. Crane racing in Corpus, was one of the few places to buy comon performance parts, I would also go to Commercial Motors in Aransass Pass for Ford Motor Sport parts.

[Aerocoupe]

So what MAF setup are you going to run and what injectors?

Darren

[95 GTS]

Originally Posted by aaronedwards82

Ok guys,
I went ahead and ordered a a9l ecm and calibration tube, and plan on getting rid of the cobra ecm.
The car has a full roller 306, i think an x cam(not to sure on the cam) with gt40p heads, cobra intake, 70mm holley tb, 1 5/8 long tubes, h with flows. Car has a t-5 with waiting to install king cobra and aluminum driveshaft.
I plan on rebuilding the motor within the next few weeks, just trying to get the bugs out of it from the previous owner(s).
Anybody have any ideas for a good cam to run? I plan on putting a c4 or aod in it when i do the motor overhaul. I might even try to build a 408 or 410, something of that nature. parts should be here tomorrow, i'll give an update to what i find out. Thanks for all the help.

run my cam, without a doubt

or an anderson B series cam.

in 95s, which make less power usually, my friend made 299/329 with his b25, another stanger made 302/330 with his xe270 and 1 /34 headers with jhis electric fan off. He found it gained 5 mph on the dyno with the fan off. I tested mine with the fan on, I could have used a few more pulls for fine tuning, but 3 is what I paid for, 295 is what I got. It will have a strong tq curve for an auto

[aaronedwards82]

Originally Posted by Sonic Blue 85

Your combination sounds good, except for the cam and possibly the TB. Check the intake and TB. The GT40 and Cobra intakes were ment for a 65mm TB. A 70mm is probly going to require you open up the intake opening were the TB mounts. I would pull the hose off of the TB, open the TB look down in it with a light. See if there is a mismatch between the intake and TB. The opening of the intake should be 65mm. You will probly need to use the TB gasket as a template and grind out the opening and then blend it back into the cross over. Be very careful not to get any metal shavings down in the intake, they can be difficult to get them all out. If you attempt this remove the intake and stuff a rag down in the cross over, make sure it is a very tight fit and then when you are done have the intake opening pointing down when you remove the rag. The other option is to get a 65mm TB if you had a GT40 I would tell you that is your only option. I would not try to open up a GT40 intake. You probly can open a cobra to a 70mm opening, but I would not try going to 75mm.As long as you have the 306 I would stick to a T5, they use the least amount of power. Possibly the C4 it also uses very little power when built correctly, but you loose your overdrive. The AOD has lots of problems and uses a lot more power. The AOD can be made to be reliable but it will cost a lot of money any you need to have someone who knows a lot about AODs to build it and install it and then adjusts the TV cable if you were to get a trans that shift on its own. The A9L will be the way to go on the ECM. As for cams for a combination like yours possibly a TFS stage I, Crower 15511, or possibly a Crower 15512. Very few people use the Crower cams but they work very well and they do not have a lot of valve lift, which you do not need much lift running a factory iron head. I noticed you are from Taft, I lived in Ingelside, I know the area well. Getting performance parts down there when I lived there was not easy. For a while we had Super Shops, but they went under. Crane racing in Corpus, was one of the few places to buy comon performance parts, I would also go to Commercial Motors in Aransass Pass for Ford Motor Sport parts.

The only reason i want/need an auto is because i'm a big guy at 6'7" and 320 lbs, and wear 17 shoes and its kinda hard and tricky to shift without killing myself. LOL I'm not going to make the car into a race car or nothing like that, just a cruising ride thats quick. I'm probably going to be changing up the heads and cam within the next few weeks, Might get some afr's or maybe some trickflows. This is my first gas powered play toy, i've always done the diesel thing. And there aren't really anymore performance shops in/around corpus compared to the bigger cities.

Originally Posted by Aerocoupe

So what MAF setup are you going to run and what injectors?

Darren

I'm going to run the C&L right now with the 24# injectors.
Later after i get the new heads and cam i'm gonna graduate to an 80mm pro m. But the set of 19# that i have are all crappy. Half of them are missing the pintle caps and just look like crap. The 24#r's look alot better so i'm gonna run'em.

[Aerocoupe]

I know guys, including myself, that are running/ran 24 lb/hr injectors and 75mm MAF's making/made over 300 rwhp. The C&L's can be irratic. Some guys have had good luck with them but I would say overall they have not been a good MAF. When and if you feel the need to step up to arepeatable MAF just get a Ford OEM 2000 or 2001 GT MAF. It is 80mm and according to the tuners I have talked to the accuracy is +/- 1%, the aftermarket cannot get this close at all. Here is where I went through all of this with my Coupe:

Difference Between 1996-2001 and 2002-2004 GT MAF meters??? - Corral Forums

Modular GT 75mm MAF and A9L in a 93 Fox - Corral Forums

Darren

[Sonic Blue 85]

Aerocoupe post reminded me of a few things. The Ford MAF elements are the best quality. The guy who original started Pro m is the same guy who designed Ford's MAF. Years ago C&L meters were considered to be very good meters that would usualy lean the car a little and make more power, but I have had some trouble with C&L meters. The reasons I have had trouble with them is the elements I was installing in the C&L housings were old. I have run into this problem for years, but it is becoming more comon because all of the factory EEC IV meters and or elements are at least 13 years old now, most are older than that. There are two elements in the sensor, one is suppose to maintain a constant temp or amp rate. The other one the computer varies the amp current through it to maintain a temperature that is if I remember correctly 20 degrees above the temperature of the other element. There is a change in resistance of the element that is proportional to the change in element temperature. The air flowing throw the sampling tube cools these elements, the more air flowing the more it cools the elements. The MAF elements are suppose to be self cleaning by heating, but as they get older they will get gunk built up on them. We use to clean them with brake parts cleaner, because it will disolve the gunk and evaporate quickly and not leave a film. Do not use carb cleaner it does not evaporate completely and may leave a film. There are now MAF areosal cleaners. If your MAF is more than three years old it probly needs cleaning. If it has build up on the elements, it will not meter correctly. The car will usualy be sluggish, but it can have multiple other symtoms. Another problem we use to have regularly 15 years ago and is worse now because of age, is the EEC IV MAF connectors don't always make good connection. There were TSBs to replace the MAF connectors 15 years ago. Ford makes a MAF pig tail to replace the MAF connector. The newer EEC V MAFs connectors do not have this problem. I have a 92 mm MAF on my car that was made by Pro M for the '99 and newer Lightnings. It is second generation EEC V which has the ACT built into the MAF. I cut the old EEC IV connector off of my harness and installed the new EEC V connector. I have not had any problems. When I get the time I will run the ACT signal return wire to the MAF also and use the ACT in the MAF. I would clean the element and look at the connectors inside the plug on the end of the harness, if you see and green, black or white coloring or just a dull gray, or if the any of the female terminals in the plug look like they spread open. Basicaly look at the male terminals in the plug on the MAF. If the female terminals should be completely closed or open to about half the thickness of the male terminal. On the coast you are going to have a lot of corrosion. That is one thing I don't miss about living down there. I would check all of the connectors in all of the plugs on the engine,computer and HEGO harnesses. All of the female terminals should be tight and they should all be clean. Also look at all of your wiring, if any of the insulation has shrunk and or any of the wires turned a dark almost black color or if there is any green coloring in any of the wires I would look into at least replacing the worst looking wires, if not all that show signs of high resistance or corrosion. Painless wiring now makes wiring harnesses for the 5.0s. The last time we checked on a wiring harness throught Ford Racing and Performance Parts was in '01, at that time there were only two left in the country,they probly have discontinued them. Hope some of this info helps.

[Aerocoupe]

Great information!!! The EEC harness from Ford is long discontinued. I have installed a couple of the Painless wiring harness and they are well worth the money when chasing electrical gremlins on a hacked up or deteriorating harness. the install just like the factory unit and are tagged up for easy installation. The instructions are pretty good but if you are not familiar with the stock harness get a Haynes manual from AutoZone as it will definitely help. Painless also makes a 94-95 specific harness as it needs to be longer for the different routing of the harness.

Darren

[aaronedwards82]

I have a 90mm maf off a lightning, but don't have a plug to convert to the new plug. Either of you don't happen to have a number for that eec v pigtail do you?
I also ordered a painless wiring harness just so i not chasin my tail. Where can i get a hego harness at?
Car runs good with the new ecm so far, just need to get a new hego harness and fix the speed sensor harness.
Thanks for all the good information and help guys.
Aaron

[Aerocoupe]

PMAS (4/6 PIN RECT) has the pigtails but they do not sell direct at least they would not to me. I bought mine from Anderson Ford Motorsports (Anderson Ford Motorsport Home Page) for $20. Call them and ask for part number E-PIGT the 4/6 pigtail.

The Painless harness comes with the HEGO and VSS harnesses built into their harness. As for getting one that will work with your current harness you need to know what year the main EEC harness is as Ford changed the wiring on them three times from 87 to 93.

Darren