[Ryan_65Stallion]

Originally Posted by Sonic Blue 85

Check to see what heads are on the engine you get from Dean and what crank it has. I saw that engine in his shop a couple of months ago. I thought it was a 289, I don't remember why I thought that other than the try Y headers. The 289 and 302 blocks have the same bore, the only difference is the 289 has a shorter stroke and the 289 has longer rods. The '65 289 heads are some good heads as far as stock heads are concerned. If the 289 heads are in good condition I would use those, unless the engine you get from Dean has as good of a head or better. The '65 289 heads have adjustable rockers, which would allow you to run a solid lifter flat tappet cam. If you are not going to drive the car as a daily driver I would put a put a solid lifter flat tappet cam.

K, I'll check but if I check the crank doesnt that mean pulling it out? I don't want to tear the engine down till I have everything I want to put in and on it and am ready to drop it in. Is there anyway to check without tearing it down? I know about the same bore and different stroke, but don't 289 heads have smaller chambers for more compression? I'll have to get my 289 heads rebuilt probably due to worn down valves. Well, right now, its not a d.d, it used to be but not anymore. and It won't be once I buy a new car when I come back. what solid lifter flat tappet cam can you suggest?

[Sonic Blue 85]

The 289s do have smaller chambers. I don't know what the casting numbers are on the 289 cranks, but I may have casting numbers in some of the info I have. I do know that all the 289s, the '68 and '69 302s and the '69 351s all had 3 bolt harmonic ballancers. Starting in '70 ford went to 4 bolt harmonic ballancers, but you can put the newer 4 bolt ballancers on the older engines and then change the crank pulley. Find out what the casting numbers on the block, heads. That is another way to possibly identify the engines.

[95 GTS]

Originally Posted by Ryan_65Stallion

what if I were to say I can get a set of e7's for $25...

would tell you I gave my e7s away with upgraded springs for free because they are trash

spend 250-300 on a set of gt40Ps and shoot for 300 at the wheels with the right cam.

or save and buy afr 165s and make 290 ish with even a stock cam. FYI I have seen 304/341 rwhp with a stock 93 cobra cam. You do not need a cam, UNTIL you have a gt40 head or better

[95 GTS]

for yoru sake, i wish you would be a little more patient and take in everything that peopel are suggesting. There is alot more cost than just a 100 dollar cam.


take this for example

eBay Motors: Cobra GT Engine Mustang F150 Ranger GT40P (item 280230093695 end time May-31-08 16:47:40 PDT)

you would start with a gt40p long block and then you could just add a cam and upgrade springs from there. Its a cheap route if you need a new motor and you want heads. I knew a guy who went this route and popped a measly e cam in there. he ran 12.4 at 108 in a 95 vert. Then he later got trick flow heads and a good cam and was running 11.7s at 114 all this with a 99 v6 t5! cutting 1.5 60s with the trick flows.

You really have to take everything with a grain of salt. Many people just regurgitate combos they see on the internet. ask the people who have actually spent years tweaking bolton and mild heads cam combos to get the most power.

You can usually go faster with less if you choose the right order in which to mod.

[95 GTS]

I think this site might really help you understand some head characteristics as apposed to internet hearsay.

The claim that some guy on here ported 351 heads to flow like 185s.....yeah, ok, supply flow sheets

spend a few hours reading this and looking at the heads out there. some heads may have similar flow numbers, but one head migt be much better in the .200-.400 range which will promote better cylinder fill and more actual HP. You can see why I chose a stage 1 gt40P for my combo.

Cast Iron Heads

[Sonic Blue 85]

I may be wrong, but he does not seem to be trying to build a lot of power. A desent set of 289s with a good valve job the right intake and cam will make 300 to 350 hp at the flywheel. I know of people who have made quite a bit more than that with 289 and 351 heads. The right aftermarket heads make it very easy to make power if the whole combination is correct, but factory iron heads can build 400hp if the combination is right. He is talking about running a edlebrock performer intake and a holley 600, with those parts I would not go recomending AFR 185s. With that intake, the 600 and the try Y headers and a desently prepped set of 289s and a mild cam he could build a reliable 302 that would make a bit over 300 hp. With better pistons, a different intake and a 650 carb he should be closer to 350 at the flywheel. I would suggest a little more than stock cam. Most of the factory engines that came with flat tappet cams had very small cams and did not make much power, most made between 145hp to 185hp. The 289 Hi Po was about the only flat tappet engine that had a decent cam.
I checked Crower's cam catalog, I found a few that would work.The first two are hydraulic.
The first is part no. 15211. 212 in./216 ex. at .050, 112 LCA .491 in./.502 ex. lift.
The second part no. 15212 220 in./226 ex. at .050, 112 LCA .491 in./.502 ex. lift.
The third part number is a solid lifter cam.
Part no. 15320 212 in./216 ex. at .050, 114 LCA .450 in./.453 ex. lift.

Comp Cams and Crain Cams are easier to find, but Crower has some good cams.
Comp Has the biggest selection and you can probably find something with very close to the same numbers as the Crower cams I listed.

[Ryan_65Stallion]

Originally Posted by 95 GTS

would tell you I gave my e7s away with upgraded springs for free because they are trash

spend 250-300 on a set of gt40Ps and shoot for 300 at the wheels with the right cam.

or save and buy afr 165s and make 290 ish with even a stock cam. FYI I have seen 304/341 rwhp with a stock 93 cobra cam. You do not need a cam, UNTIL you have a gt40 head or better

I'm not looking to make 300rwhp right now. esp. on that acient ass old design suspension setup my car has.
225ish hp will be plenty for me, that would put me in the 13's, I really dont need that much faster of a car right now.

Originally Posted by Sonic Blue 85

I may be wrong, but he does not seem to be trying to build a lot of power. A desent set of 289s with a good valve job the right intake and cam will make 300 to 350 hp at the flywheel. I know of people who have made quite a bit more than that with 289 and 351 heads. The right aftermarket heads make it very easy to make power if the whole combination is correct, but factory iron heads can build 400hp if the combination is right. He is talking about running a edlebrock performer intake and a holley 600, with those parts I would not go recomending AFR 185s. With that intake, the 600 and the try Y headers and a desently prepped set of 289s and a mild cam he could build a reliable 302 that would make a bit over 300 hp. With better pistons, a different intake and a 650 carb he should be closer to 350 at the flywheel. I would suggest a little more than stock cam. Most of the factory engines that came with flat tappet cams had very small cams and did not make much power, most made between 145hp to 185hp. The 289 Hi Po was about the only flat tappet engine that had a decent cam.
I checked Crower's cam catalog, I found a few that would work.The first two are hydraulic.
The first is part no. 15211. 212 in./216 ex. at .050, 112 LCA .491 in./.502 ex. lift.
The second part no. 15212 220 in./226 ex. at .050, 112 LCA .491 in./.502 ex. lift.
The third part number is a solid lifter cam.
Part no. 15320 212 in./216 ex. at .050, 114 LCA .450 in./.453 ex. lift.

Comp Cams and Crain Cams are easier to find, but Crower has some good cams.
Comp Has the biggest selection and you can probably find something with very close to the same numbers as the Crower cams I listed.

thank you. your right, I don't want a 300rwhp car right now on the chassis I have, once I upgrade the chassis I will make more power.
I just want to know which would be a good cam for the setup I have. I'll be sure to check out those cams, and thanks for the info

[95 GTS]

you are missing my whole point. you are going to spend more to make 225 hp than I would to make 300. I am trying to prevent you from wasting your money just to tear it down in a few years and do it all over again.

no body ever suggested 185s, I also didnt say a stock flat tap cam, I refered directly to a stock roller cam.

you are going to spend more on porting and a valve job than you would just buying a set of gt40Ps or even gt40s.

[Ryan_65Stallion]

Originally Posted by 95 GTS

you are missing my whole point. you are going to spend more to make 225 hp than I would to make 300. I am trying to prevent you from wasting your money just to tear it down in a few years and do it all over again.

no body ever suggested 185s, I also didnt say a stock flat tap cam, I refered directly to a stock roller cam.

you are going to spend more on porting and a valve job than you would just buying a set of gt40Ps or even gt40s.

Um no, I dont need to buy new heads, I got my intake and carb I want. All I want next is a cam. The kit is what, depending on the cam, around $200.
I don't need to spend $300 on heads right now. And its my choice to tear it down in a couple years if I want. I don't think I'll be wasting my money. Like I said, 225rwhp is enough for me right now at this point in time.

[Sonic Blue 85]

I was not talking of porting the heads, just making sure the guildes are good, hardend seats, resurfacing them and possibly bowl hogging them. If you read what he has written completely, you will see he does not have a roller cam block. Knowing it probably is not anything special and possibly stock. I would say the cam is probably very small. So with out going to an expessive hydraulic roller cam conversion or buying another block or short block just to get a roller cam block and possibly a cam. I would suggest putting a small flat tappet cam in what he has.
It is possible to port iron heads to flow what some of the milder aftermarket heads flow, but not worth it unless you are limited by a class rule or you are a good head porter and you do the work your self.
In this case with his power requirements, one of the better factory iron heads will work well. Increasing the head flow is not the only way to increase hp. The old way of getting an engine to make more hp was to rev it higher with the right cam and valve train. You can also pick up quite a bit of hp by reducing friction, also by reducing recipricating and rotating weight and there are other ways. There are many people who have built 12 and even 11 second cars using unported factory heads. My opinion is if you are going to use aftermarket heads the car should run at least mid 12s with a small cam and intake. I prefer they go at least 11s, most of the better aftemarket heads with the right intake, cam and exhaust will make enough hp to go at least 11s and still have good driveability on the street if tuned correctly with out any power adders or a stroker kit.

[95 GTS]

how much do you think that type of work will run on his heads?

He did state he was going to replace the long block, thats why I suggested getting the roller setup for the same price with the better heads already on it.

spinning a higher rpm to make more power will increase power as long as the heads dont limit you. E7s happen to be limited and you will not really squeeze any more power out of them as you can with an HO roller cam. You will merely shift the curve. adding 1.7s and grinding the thermactor bumps will give you more of a gain on an e7. I know the old heads are not designed the same as an e7.

my untouched e7s ran 12.81 at 106... i know what stock heads can do and how rare it is for someone to accomplish that.

[Sonic Blue 85]

The engine he is talking about buying is an older carburated engine, so I would say it is probably flat tappet. I have noticed that you seem to think only one way, that eveyone is running EFI. I am not sure you under stand how short runner, carburated engines make power as compaired to long runner EFI engines. There are multiple reasons you will not make much more power reving a long runner EFI engine high. The EFI engines make more power sooner because of the ram effect of the longer runners, but the longer runners create a lot of restriction once you get past thier peak ram. Another reason is the heavy hydraulic rollers will cause valve float earlier, than a flat tappet cam. But you can have a carburated engine with a hydraulic roller cam, they do work well together, many of the common EFI intakes cause the power to fall off beforer the cam is done. A carburated engine on the other hand will not make as much power as early as a long runner EFI engine, mainly because the runners are much shorter, resulting in a weaker ram. The carb intakes are usually tunned for the seventh pressure wave, which is much weaker than the wave the EFI engines are tuned for. I think they are usualy tuned for the fourth wave. The carb engines having much shorter runners, than the long runner EFI intakes are much less restrictive. So once they hit max power they do not nose over as soon. Since the carb intake runners are shorter and less restrictive the engines have lower drag. Basicaly even with everything else being the same just changing intakes from a long runner EFI to a short runner carb intake there is less resistance for the piston to move down the cylinder on the intake stoke, simply because of the increased length of the runners, is going to increase the rescriction.
So reving an EFI engine with a long runner intake is a waste of time unless you have a specialy designed intake or a power adder forcing the air down the runners. As for the heads being the big limiting factor, yes sometimes they are, but with a small engine a small head is not that big of a restriction, as long as it is efficent. Many of the small block ford heads are efficent for thier size. Ford actualy had a better intake to exhaust flow ratio than Chevy for many years. Chevy's vortec head was one of GM's first heads that got the intake to exhaust flow ratio correct. The old small block Chevy heads have too large of exhaust ports for the size of the intake, so you old school Chevy guys have always thought Ford exhaust ports were too small, when it actualy was the other way around.
With the right intake, carb, cam, valve train and exhaust you can make a basicaly stock headed 289-302 rev very high and make peak power at very high rpms. This can be done with with most any small block head, but the 289, 69 351, E7, GT40 and GT40P heads are the better heads. It is basicaly understanding what the limitations of the head are and working with those limitations. On the other hand building a 408 and putting stock E7s on it, will be nothing but a restriction.
If you do choose to use an efficent aftermarket head that is notably larger than stock and then install a short runner carb intake that matches up to the heads, you can create an engine that potentialy could build much more than than what the stock heads can do. Because you have increased the air flow and reduced the drag on the intake stroke even more. Also the resitance on the piston to move up the cylinder on the exhaust stroke could also be reduced, as a result of a better flowing exhaust port and larger header to go with the larger head.
If you want to build an engine that makes good power but does not rev high, installing the right long runner intake is the way to go. There is not one intake that works for all aplications. GT 40s for example have round runners with no taper, they produce a very stong ram up to about 5200 rpm, they then become a restriction very quickly. The Holley sytemax is not as efficent, it also does not have any runner taper, but has a much lager cross sectional area so it can make more power, but because it's runners are not as efficent and having a large cross sectional area, it is not a good choice for most small engines unless they are boosted. It would be a good choice for a 347 with 185 cc to 200 cc heads. I have recommened the Performer RPM II many times because it's runners are efficent, a little shorter than most of the other long runner intakes, reducing it's restriction and the cross sectional area is small enough that it will work well with smaller engines. With 347's being about the largest engine to use it on.
As for the number of people making good power with small heads, there are many, but the percentage that make good power with small heads would be low. Because few spend the time to learn how, unless they run in a class that limits what head they use or they want to be different. Possibly they trying to create a sleaper, prove a point or just have a small budget and are trying to get the most out of what they have. That is how I started. I had a 351W in a '69 mustang that would clock 120+mph trap speeds, with '69 351Ws that I ported, with 1.84 in. 1.54 ex. valves. I spent a lot of time working on the valve job and learning to squeaze every last once out of power out of the 650 cfm carb.

[12second5.0]

Here's the heads you want Ryan......


FS: GT-40P Heads

[Ryan_65Stallion]

I do have the money right now to buy a set of heads, but whats the point if I don't get a bigger and better cam?

[12second5.0]

Originally Posted by Ryan_65Stallion

I do have the money right now to buy a set of heads, but whats the point if I don't get a bigger and better cam?

Because you will achieve the biggest power gain by replacing the stock heads. VS any off the shelf cam...........But suit yourself since you know more than we do.........

[Ryan_65Stallion]

damn dude, chill. I'm just asking why get better heads that wont really matter if I don't get a cam?

[12second5.0]

BTW the old trophy stock guys at ffw were using the P heads and running 10's with nothing more than port matching and a few other tricks...

[12second5.0]

Originally Posted by Ryan_65Stallion

damn dude, chill. I'm just asking why get better heads that wont really matter if I don't get a cam?

Because you can do alot with just better heads alone........
He went 12.60's at 108 in a 3200 pound car(with him in it). Ported E7's (by me and him) Kotzur valve job. STOCK CAM retarded 4 degrees. Cobra intake, a few other bolt ons. 4.10's and some suspension work......

[Ryan_65Stallion]

I'd love to see a time slip. I've heard all about the 12 second cars with stock cam and after market heads, but never have seen time slips. I want to see the proof not just hear about it.

[12second5.0]

Originally Posted by Ryan_65Stallion

I'd love to see a time slip. I've heard all about the 12 second cars with stock cam and after market heads, but never have seen time slips. I want to see the proof not just hear about it.

I am sure you would doubt the time slip..........